Posted by Amy K on September 03, 2003 at 21:03:27:
In Reply to: :) posted by Mels on September 02, 2003 at 14:30:22:
Hey, Mel,
Where to start? :) I appreciate you sharing what you went through with Joey, and I don't want to minimalize that in any way. However, I just don't think that the reasons you mentioned were justification for taking the life of an innocent baby. The child inside you wasn't less fit to live and less worthy of consideration than Joey, just because she was inside you and he was outside! They were both equally your children. Does it make sense to say, okay, I have two children, and I'm going to dismember the one so I won't damage the other?
Your discussion of reincarnation didn't upset or offend me at all. However, I'm sure you would agree that just believing something does not make it true. We can have a sincerely held belief and be sincerely wrong. I once believed in a God who winked at my sin. I believed that I could frankly do just about whatever I wanted, because He would forgive me. Unfortunately, that God was a figment of my imagination. He was not the God of the Bible, who is both loving AND just.
You are correct, we cannot destroy a soul. However, that is no justification for violently putting children to death. Would we ever use the same logic for an infant? Would we say, well, this child's soul will live on, so it's okay for us to kill her?
Have you ever seen an ultrasound of a first-trimester abortion? It's horrible. Those babies WANT to live. I'm sure you've probably heard of the video "The Silent Scream," narrated by former abortionist and former head of NARAL, Dr. Bernard Nathanson. The baby in the ultrasound in that video can be seen frantically dodging the suction instrument again and again, while her heartbeat increases from 140 to 200 beats a minutes. When she is finally caught and disembered, her mouth clearly opens wide.
This just doesn't fit your theory about about a baby's soul not inhabiting a body that's not "meant" to live. Unborn babies have been seen sucking their thumbs on ultrasounds just prior to abortions. The babies respond to light, and touch, and sound. They are fully "there"...even when their mothers make the choice to put them to death.
The great thing about Christianity, as opposed to other systems of belief, is that it is so steeped in objective evidence. No one has to throw their intellect out the window to become a Christian. :) In fact, there have been many, many hardened atheists who have set out to refute Christianity and who have come to faith in the process just because of the sheer weight of the evidence for the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Just a few of these are Lee Strobel ("The Case for Christ"), C.S. Lewis ("Mere Christianity"), and Josh McDowell ("More than a Carpenter," "Evidence That Demands a Verdict"). I encourage you to check out these books if you are interested. I'd say Strobel's book would probably be the most interesting to you, and I'd be happy to send you my copy if you'd like. Also, for a brief overview of a few of the evidences for the resurrection, you can take a look at the article listed at the website below.
Jesus said, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me” (John 14:6). He was either lying, or crazy, or He was telling the truth. I believe that anyone who takes the time and effort to seriously study the Gospels and their supporting evidences will conclude that He was telling the truth, and realize what they need to do in response to that.
Mel, I appreciate your openness, good humor, and courtesy throughtout all our discussions. :) Thanks so much for your good wishes for our future. I wish you the best, too.
Amy
: Hey there,
: I'm hyper-posting today, sorry! Some days I just do that...
: I considered what you said about what to tell Joey...that we just couldn't give the new baby a good enough home and really take care of her. But this brought a few things to mind. First of all, Joey has always been sharp as a tack and a little on the cynical side (my poor boy, I always wish he could just enjoy himself--I blame that on me & my genetics--I'm the same way). No matter how many times I reassured him that *he* wouldn't be given up, he never would have believed it. And I was having enough problems with Joey as it was. He was in & out of therapy...he always felt "different" (no father, etc.) and was very defensive, fought all the time, etc., etc. His self-esteem could fit on the head of a pin. I bought a million books, asked the advice of a hundred different people, moms, pediatricians, etc., but nothing helped Joey feel better about Joey. I could not imagine dealing not only w/daily phone calls from the school and working full-time and being exhausted and taking great pains with Joey, but also being pregnant at the same time. AND then dealing with him being even more unsettled b/c there was another baby but this one was going away. And even if he did end up believing he himself would not be sent away--well, I know my Joey. He would have internalized everything & wondered why he got lucky but the baby didn't...and his guilt would have blown his head. And on the other hand, then he would wonder, How come the baby gets to go to a BETTER family, with a daddy, while we have no daddy here and we're poor and....and...and....You get the picture. :)
: So I did consider that but I thought Joey was on such a thin thread to begin with, I thought this might just push him over the edge. Then I'd have one insane child, one child missing and still be supporting him & working full-time, AGHHHHHHHHH....
: So that's the story there...
: As far as pro choice but not "pro abortion," I explained that badly. What I meant was that pro-choice doesn't necessarily mean "go have an abortion unless your circumstances are 100% great..." Choice means choice...it doesn't mean I think abortion is great or even good, or that that would always be the choice. It means having the resource either to have a baby or not have a baby.
: The bank-robbing analogy...that is a tough one. I'm going to say something now that might upset or anger some people but just as Christianity is your belief, this is my belief.
: I believe in reincarnation. I always have, ever since I was very young. Since before Joey, before the abortion...since I was pretty small. I used to keep that to myself b/c I thought people might think I was nuts. And some people might still think that. But I don't think they're nuts for believing a woman got pregnant from God without any semen involved and that her son died but then came back to life again...so I don't know that my beliefs sound so crazy in light of all that. So anyway, I believe that we create little bodies for souls to go into. Our babies aren't really "ours"...they're a privilege. They're not little extensions of us. They're their own souls. They do inherit things from us through genetics and some of that is personality b/c some of personality has a physical and chemical basis. But they have their own souls and they choose us as their parents. I don't think these souls go into a body that is never going to be. I think we have that experience for a reason. Again...I know that's going to upset a lot of people. I'm sorry. I don't want to upset anyone. But those are my beliefs just as Christians have their beliefs and Moslems have theirs, etc., etc.
: I know Joey chose me and I know Colin chose me. And I know my little girl, if she wants to be born, will choose me again. It doesn't make abortion "right"...I still agonize over it. But I don't think I played god by having an aboriton because NOBODY can kill a soul. Certainly not little old flawed sinful me! Nobody at all. If a baby wants to be born...it will be.
: Whew! Sorry for the diatribe. Anyhoo, like I said, that's not all a justificaiton for any past wrongdoings I've commited. I didn't start beliving this after I got pregnant, I already believed it. That's also why I don't think I was a "victim" getting pregnant. As you said, sex was my choice. Nobody forced me. And if I were a perfect person, I would never have had sex outside of marriage, but I am not a perfect person. I have been responsible from anything that happened as an extension of having sex with one person or another. I take my responsibilities pretty seriously.
: All that said...YES, I do still wish I had had that baby. :) But I also see how it would have been impossible for me. I'm not trying to convince you, b/c your beliefs and mine are different. I can't say mine are right. Just that they "are".
: So anyway, I hope you and your DH get that little baby you want! I am sure you will make a great parent. I'll tell you what, between you & me, being an older parent is so much healthier than being a younger one. I really know what I want now, so I'm not "interfering" with Colin just being who he is. I feel like I really pushed Joey to excel but now I see it's up to the child to go at his own pace.
: And: Giving birth on all fours: When your time comes, do what you feel is right! Either go on all fours or squat up w/a bar or whatever feels best. I am so glad that many hospitals listen to moms now when we tell them what feels good or bad during labor.
: Love,
: Mel
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