Posted by Amy K on September 04, 2003 at 18:58:03:
In Reply to: I mean Amy, not Ashley, LOL, sorry, hon! Very tired... :) n/m posted by Mels on September 04, 2003 at 00:13:39:
: : : n/m
: : Hey Ashley. :) I guess this isn't the place for a theological discussion, but I'm the one who brought it up so I have nobody to blame but myself, LOL.
: : All rightie...as far as being an atheist, I know you didn't say I was one, but you explained about people who changed from atheism to Christianity. I'm not an atheist, and I don't believe that the only way to be a "believer" is to be a Christian. I do believe in something, very strongly. Now...as far as a god who winks at people's wrongdoings, so that they can do whatever they want...actually, reincarnation believes in exactly the opposite. In karma, you are responsible for your every action. EVERY action. I'm not sure in what way I will have to rebalance karma for having had an abortion. I'm not sure in what way I've rebalanced it by having experiences that were negative toward my own body on the part of others. But I do know for sure that i am 100% responsible for every single thing I do...which is why I've said before I don't think I'm a victim of my circumstances.
: : I don't believe that I only do wrong because originally, my ancestors did wrong and therefore I am born in sin. I can't put off my wrongdoings on anyone who came before me. My wrongdoings are just that...mine. And I don't believe in a god who would create me to have choices, but then would kick me out eternally of a wonderful place because I chose the thing he didn't like. That's such a scary thought.
: : "Jesus said": You quoted Jesus, or thought you did. Actually, you quoted people who wrote ABOUT Jesus. I do believe Jesus was a real person. I also believe that saying he was "the way" didn't mean he was "the only way". And I don't believe that everything he said is exactly the same as in the Bible...if so, then it's a heck of a coincidence. Because the earliest books of the bible were written 55 years after his death. Now, think about that. Can you accurately quote someone who lived 55 years ago, based on something you heard? Because until then, it was all oral...nothing was being written down *as* he was alive. Can you tell me accurately something that someone your mother knew told her in 1958? Think about it. I think a lot of the Bible, like any other book on earth, is interpretation. I do not believe Jesus was crazy. I believe he was very smart, very evolved and very close to god, but that as even the Bible says, All paths lead to god. Think about that one too.
: : Evidence for life in before birth: The church itself changes its beliefs based on evidence, time and time again. Time was, it was the church itself that believed life did not begin until approximately the fifth month. The evidence? Women didn't "feel life" until then. Hence (and these were scientists putting forth this idea), fetuses didn't move until the fifth month. And further, if something doesn't move, it isn't alive. Well, obviously neither of those things is true. Now science says that because fetuses respond to pain, their brains register it as such, and that's why they're jerking backward. But how do we know? What's the difference between a cat in labor and a human in labor? A cat in labor rarely cries out or even moves very far. A human screams and cries and often needs drugs. The difference is fear...OUR KNOWLEDGE of what is going on. I'm not saying that I know 100% that a 6-week fetus does not feel pain. But I'm saying that neither do you know 100% that it does. I also wonder how old that fetus was on Silent Scream, because babies' heartbeats don't reach 140 bpm until approximately 11 weeks. That's pretty darned far along. That's twice the age that my baby was (I was nearly 6 weeks).
: : So...all in all, I don't have the answers, I just have my beliefs, as you have yours. Mine are just as much based one evidence as yours...because it should be noted that in the human experience, "evidence" is what we wish to see of a pool of facts. Mine too. Again, I'm not saying I'm right. Maybe you are right, and maybe god did give me this choice but will be right there to send me to hell for making the wrong one. If so, then (big breath & leap of faith here) I don't want to be with him anyway. Because in my view (and ONLY my view), that is unbelievably cold, mean and almost a challenge. A god, who is immortal, is going to challenge me to be just as intelligent and capable of making the right choices that he does? That's like smacking a child because he can't do calculus.
: : So anyway...I do believe in god...just not in the Christian interpretation of god. And again, not saying I'm right...just that this is my belief. I definitely feel 100% accountable for my own actions.
: : I am really glad for your input. I hope all this discussion doesn't freak anyone here out. I guess there isn't much else I can say on the subject and I can't convince you & I don't even want to, b/c what you have found is your own personal "recipe" for getting closer to god, so that in itself makes it very real indeed. My own personal "recipe" brings me closer to god too, which makes it real to me. My final belief is that deep-down, whoever or whatever god is doesn't care what method we use, just so long as we're trying to talk to him/her/it, b/c it's gotta be lonely at the top. :)
: : Love,
: : Mel the Theologian
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